Gundam Australia Forum

The Flight Deck => Engineering Corps => Topic started by: Atchy on February 17, 2013, 06:08:19 PM

Title: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 17, 2013, 06:08:19 PM
Hey guys! First of all I'm sorry if this has been covered somewhere in the forum. I'm reasonably new to airbrushing and I came across this problem just now.

For the most part I have been using Tamiya acrylics thinned down with metholated spirits and I must say that has always gone down a treat. This method has almost NEVER given me any grief.

Looking through the internet I noticed that a lot of modelers favored Model Color paints by Vajello. I was curious so I wandered into a few shops and to my great surprise I was able to track it down, and it had a massive range and was a fraction cheaper than Tamiya...... AWESOME. I asked the guy in the store about thinning it down, he recommended just using water to thin is and clean the gun. AWESOME AGAIN. Until I tried it.........

I just had the worse time of it. The paint refused to spread thinly, the color was inconsistent and gluggy, and it clogged up my airbrush like there was no tomorrow. NO WAY could I clean it out with water, needed a good amount of force and turps to get the stuff out!

Please help! I would love to get good results out of this as the range of colors would make it so much easier to experiment and get more complex and interesting results. Do you guys think I've done something wrong? Is this brand not as good as I've been led to believe? All advice greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Jimmy The Guz on February 17, 2013, 06:45:27 PM
Try using  the same bands thinner if they have one.  From what I've found using tap water to thin out acrylics has caused me more problems than using the correct thinner.  Also you may not have thinned out the paint enough which is why your airbrush may clog.  Otherwise it could be the pressure you are spraying at?

There are many members here that have great websites and YouTube channels (The Ghost of Zeon and Mokana Man to name a few) which may help.  And maybe this thread in the Engineering Corps may help too.  http://gundamaustralia.com/forum/index.php?topic=1096.0

I'm no pro but it may help.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 17, 2013, 06:49:12 PM
Cheers for the quick response! I figured getting the correct thinner was probably the way to go. I'm using a double action Badger airbrush at 10psi if that's what you're referring to with pressure. I'm just a bit frustrated that I was told that tap water was the way to go!

I was curious if anyone else came across the problem or has had better results with Model Color paints perhaps? :)
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Jimmy The Guz on February 17, 2013, 07:04:30 PM
I use Tamiya and Gunze and a Badger double action as well.  I tend to spray around 15 to 20 psi for most paints due to my airbrush being siphon fed.  

I'm sure one of the pros here in the GAF will have more of an idea about the Model Colour paints.   :)

Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: TheGhostofZeon on February 17, 2013, 07:11:43 PM
Yeah, I had the same problem recently with the Model Air range from Vallejo. That range is meant to be prethinned for airbrush use but the paint would dry and clog the brush. Paint was well mixed but I found that thinning with water was the only way I could get it to spray correctly.

This meant that more airbrushing was needed as the paint was much thinner that its meant to be but it went on fine after that.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 17, 2013, 07:25:24 PM
So wait........ you were ONLY able to get it to work with water? :S

This would seem to contradict my results........

Also you mentioned your airbrush was syphon fed. It sounds as if we have the same brush here, why would you recommend the higher 15-20psi ? Im pretty sure mine is at 10 atm.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: thegunny on February 17, 2013, 07:28:25 PM
Vallejo is a resin based acrylic not solvent based like Gunze & Tamiya. Whilst it can be thinned with water it is best to use their own thinner as it doesn't directly effect the properties of the paint. I've been using it for years and it does take a lot of getting used to. I use at least 20psi if not higher and a medium to largish size needle as I found that it doesn't like the smaller needle sizes. It is also temperature sensitive and does not spray well when cold. One thing I've found is that it's best to take the nozzle off the bottle and stir the paint as shaking sometimes doesn't get all the resin mixed properly, especially if it has been sitting for a long time as it settles out in a lump in the bottom and this translates through to lumpy bits in the airbrush which will give clogging as well.

One thing that I've found over the years is not to thin it with solvents as it will just end up as a gluggy mess. Clean up with water first then use IPA to finish off. Before starting spray a small amount of water through the airbrush just to make sure you've got no solvent left. Model Colour is very durable when it does work and doesn't run nearly as much as the solvent based acrylics if you get a bit heavy handed.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 17, 2013, 07:31:17 PM
Brilliant! Thanks for the info! :)

I get the impression I've been somewhat babied into airbrushing with my n00b-proof Tamiyas :P good the know the results do get better with practice!
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: thegunny on February 17, 2013, 07:39:28 PM
One thing I should have mentioned is that it does go off unlike solvent based paints. I've had bottles where it has gone like curdled milk and no amount of thinning, straining or sacrifices to to the gods will help.

Another think you need to take into consideration is all tap water is not the same. As this paint is resin based it does react differently with whatever your local water treatment plant is adding to the water. I live in an area that uses bore water and it definitely doesn't like whatever is done to it. If I use water to thin I use rain water or distilled water. 
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Jimmy The Guz on February 17, 2013, 09:11:55 PM
So wait........ you were ONLY able to get it to work with water? :S

This would seem to contradict my results........

Also you mentioned your airbrush was siphon fed. It sounds as if we have the same brush here, why would you recommend the higher 15-20psi ? Im pretty sure mine is at 10 atm.

I originally sprayed at 10psi when I used my old gravity feed AB.  Since switching to the gravity fed Badger 175, I've found I get a better spray/finish when I have sprayed at 15 to 20 psi with well thinned paint (1 to 3 ratio is what I try for).  It also depends on weather I am doing big or small pieces, the color I'm using and the finial finish of the paint once it has been sprayed.

Again this was all trail and error for me.  If the paint doesn't go on the way I like it then I strip down the part and re-spray at the different psi setting.

If you find that 10psi works best for you then keep using it bro. 

Hope this helps :)
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 17, 2013, 09:16:46 PM
Well I'm not finding it works best atm :P So I will try for more! When you say 1 to 3 you mean 1 part pain to 3 part thinners yeah? Just double checking everyone seems to use this short hand terminology without saying blatantly which is which :p

I just check the parts I sprayed again. Loving the look of the pain, but itll all have to be stripped back and sprayed properly. Should look awesome when its thin and even :) I'll chuck up some pics when I get it right!
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Jimmy The Guz on February 17, 2013, 09:24:05 PM
Yeah mate.  Most people go for the consistency of milk when adding thinner to paint.  I have used 50/50 mix of paint and thinner which works ok for certain paints.  Then I experimented with using 1/3 paint and 2/3 thinner which worked really well for tamiya acrylic paint that I was using.  

Again this may vary depending on the type of paint you are using and how thin you need to get it to make it to spray well with an airbrush.

Its all part of the leaning process.  Thats half the fun.  Good luck Atchy :)
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: KaiK on February 17, 2013, 11:31:53 PM
Bit of a fun fact, some Model Colour paints contain Cadmium and shouldn't be sprayed.

Definitely use water or Vallejo thinners with the Model Colour range. Some people also use a Model Colour + Vallejo Thinners + Vallejo Airbrush Cleaner mixture for their airbrush with great success. I've never tried this out myself since I've stopped using Vallejo paints.

Vallejo Model Colour have a great range of colours but tend to spray on a tad too thick for my liking, additionally they aren't as strong as Tamiya + Lacquer Thinner mixture or Mr Color solvent based acrylics.

Past configurations I've used are 1:3 mixture @ 18 psi 0.3 mm nozzle, 1:2 mixture @ 20 psi 0.5 mm nozzle and 1:1 @ 25 psi 0.5 mm all thinned with water (works with Vallejo Thinners too).

I'm rather surprised you get good flow @ 10 psi because usually to get that to work you need really thin paint (with thinners not water) and possibly a 0.2 or 0.3 mm nozzle.

If you want to stick with Vallejo I'd highly recommend finding the Model Air equivalent colour or use their range of thinners.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 18, 2013, 01:50:15 PM
Awesome thanks dude! I feel a bit silly I only just now realized "Model Air" meant airbrush paints. I kind of thought it was a range of paints for aircrafts, like how their other ranges are for specific genres of models :P Silly me! Just got some new paints and thinners and I'll try some more of this in a tick.

KaiK: you mentioned you've moved away from these paints, what do you now use? I'm not about to jump ships on a whim I'm just curious about all the different paints and the pros and cons.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: KaiK on February 18, 2013, 02:26:17 PM
I primarily use Mr Color solvent based acrylics and on occasion Tamiya paints.

Mr Color is pretty must the same stuff as paint from a spray can. I use it because it dries/cures really fast and extremely hard, also it is the colour range that Bandai kits refer to. Metallic colours in this range are really good and aren't too speckly. Downside is they can be pretty hard to find in-stock and they're not the best thing for your health. There is also a Mr Hobby Aqueous colour range too.

Tamiya acrylics are pretty tough too if mixed with Tamiya Lacquer thinners. They're great for hand painting and colour match really well with their own enamel range of paints. Downside is they don't dry/cure as fast or hard as Mr Color paints and their metallic range is utter garbage in my opinion. Their range of colours is primarily suited for real life military vehicles.   
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 18, 2013, 03:10:12 PM
Yeah I love the Tamiyas. Not finding them great with the brush atm though, might have to practice a bit on that front! Will worry more about that once I've got my airbrush technique sound :)
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: TheGhostofZeon on February 18, 2013, 03:34:24 PM
I like to experiment with different brands from time to time but my main choice of paint is Gunze. Doesn't matter if it's Mr Hobby Aqua or Mr Color / Mr Metal Lacquer, I find anything by Gunze is by far the best for Gunpla. I used to rely on Tamiya as that was the only type of paint we had in town, but since another store opened which stocks Gunze, that's my main port of call if I'm desperate for paints.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: QuangVuong on February 18, 2013, 07:10:15 PM
I find it amazing that you guys paint at such low pressures. I set the compressor to max(~60PSI) and just spray with full power with a gravity fed.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Shaid on February 18, 2013, 07:30:47 PM
That's... pretty high.

Do you ever blow pieces off the sticks/desk/planet? ;)

Possibly you're not getting 60psi out the business end, if you have leakage along the way.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: KaiK on February 18, 2013, 07:33:09 PM
Wow 60 psi  :o

Are you sure your pressure gauge is working right?

Internal corrosion can affect the accuracy of the reading.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: TheGhostofZeon on February 18, 2013, 08:06:29 PM
60 seems overkill to me. Mostly I use 30 at most.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: QuangVuong on February 19, 2013, 05:23:11 PM
I know my tank is rusty as, but the gauges work fine. And I reckon 60PSI doesnt come out of the AB. The air filter and the AB itself wouldnt allow 60PSI to pass through(even though the limiters are open to the max). If I spray at 30PSI, then the air flow seems too weak to me. Less paint comes out and Im just not used to that.

Could be how I mix paints as well(as ive never used model or airbrush ready paints). And I still reckon my painting is fine.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Piat on February 19, 2013, 07:06:20 PM
I'm pretty sure most AB are rated for 30psi max
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 20, 2013, 03:40:50 PM
Yeah 60 seems a little high dude :S I was told to keep my AB at 10 with the Tamiyas.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 23, 2013, 03:20:20 PM
Right, this is starting to get ridiculous........

I have a HG dom thats VERY PATIENTLY been sitting in pieces in my garage getting ready to be painted.... for about 2 weeks now.

So I sat down before to try and suss out the correct thinners, ratio ect. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to make this paint spread evenly. It ALWAYS comes out in a broad speckle. I'm at my wits end here! I thought this was meant to be great paint, it seems to comes highly recommended from several sources >_< Its at the stage where I need someone to physically show me how to do this.

Here is a picture of the results I am getting every time I try this:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/858761_10151437745265914_1922660827_o.jpg)

The purples at the colors I'm having issues with. The yellow is a Tamiya one I've used in the past and you can plainly see how much better that's thinning down! I swear I don't even have to try with the Tamiyas. I just wish they have a better range of colours!

I'm using 20 psi of pressure. The compressor is ancient but shes giving me good constant pressure.
My Airbrush is a Badger 150. Its a double action so I've been able to try varying amounts of paint spread quite easily. The paint only seems to want to come out with a bit of force though (no matter how much thinners I use). The brush gets regularly cleaned out with Turps, but I always make sure to flush out the turps with a bit of thinners before putting paint through it so turps doesn't get mixed in with the paint.
http://www.badgerairbrush.com/Badger_150.asp
I'm using a few Vallejo Model Color paints with Their airbrush thinners at ratios 1:1 and 1:2 and 1:3 (I tried them all). I'm thinning the paint by putting it in the small plastic container I use to spray it out of then stirring it with a small cotton bud.

^is there anything I've missed? Pulling my hair out at this stage would LOVE any and all advice!
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: thegunny on February 23, 2013, 04:09:42 PM
Why do you use turps??? You do realise that turps is oil based? Use GP thinners if you don't have IPA and as I said before Vellajo reacts quite badly with ANY solvent. Water or Vallejo thinners is it. Run a fair bit of water through before putting the paint in.

That pattern looks to me as if you've got the brush adjusted right down or you've got the fine needle in it and also why are you stirring the paint with a cotton bud  ??? ??? ??? Crap from the cotton bud can get into the working of the airbrush and clog things up. use a tooth pick if you don't have a proper stirrer.

Do you have a moisture trap on your compressor and if it's as ancient as you say it could have contaminants in the tank or has oil blowing by the rings.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 23, 2013, 04:25:40 PM
Cause Turps is cheap and plentiful, this is what was previously recommended to me. its never given me any woes before but Id be happy to try other things, Ive got some GP auto enamel thinner would that do better? You suspect the Turps may be the culprit here?

what do you mean by "Adjusted right down". As I said its a duel action brush and I've tried all manner of positions to the same effect. I just now tested it on a lower PSI and that SEEMS to give SLIGHTLY better results. So perhaps could it be a problem with the paint drying out? I do not use the tip of the cotton bud I cut it in half first and use the plastic part.

Yes it does have a moisture trap but I've never gotten crap out of it in other paints, which leads me to believe thats not the common factor in this. The old girl needs a good oil which I'm currently taking care of.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: KaiK on February 23, 2013, 06:22:03 PM
Hi Atchy,

The speckle patten you're spraying out is a fairly common problem when it comes to Vallejo Model Colour paints. The paint has quite a high pigment count and doesn't tend to break down easily even with thinner. I usually give the thinners a bit of time to break down the paint before spraying.

When ever I mix paint I use a jar with a lid and a clean paint brush. Stirring with a paint brush tends to break down the paint faster and more effectively, also you can use the brush to check how well the paint has be thinned by brushing the mixture on a bit of paper. If you see particles on the paper then the mixture is not ready. Once stirring is done I cap up the jar, give it a good shake and let it rest so that the air bubbles escape.

I use lacquer thinners to clean my airbrush which I purchased from Bunnings, it does a great job at breaking down paint and dries without leaving residue. It is also cheap and plentiful.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Ethan on February 23, 2013, 09:17:12 PM
Don't mean to interrupt in this discussion, but Atchy, you might want to try the medium or large tip/needle on your 150 if you have the 150-7 set. Whenever I tried spraying something that had larger pigments with my 150, I would always end with the result that you have posted up if it was equipped with the smallest tip/needle.

Also, double check that you don't have anything stuck in the tip. Like gunny said, using a cotton bud to mix your paints can leave some fibres inside your airbrush when spraying the paint. It then clogs into a ball and gets stuck in the tip of the airbrush when you're trying to spray paint. Another thing when mixing your paint, stir it, then lift it up and down, and then repeat that process. I find that mixing the 'paint' in circles sometimes leaves a whole heap of solid gunk at the bottom.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: KaiK on February 23, 2013, 10:34:41 PM
I've done some testing and here are the results.

(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc517/Kwirkshop/Misc/Resize.jpg)

Left to right: 1:2 Mr Color Lacquer thinner, 1:1 Tamiya X20A thinner, 1:1 Water

All tests were done using a Sparmax DH103 with a 0.3mm nozzle @ 15 psi

I no longer have Vallejo thinners because I don't really use their line of paints. The Dark Sand pictured is an old vial that I've had for around 5 years which I was going to use for an M1A1 tank.

All 3 mixtures have great flow but you can clearly see that the water mixture had issues sticking to the surface. Although I sprayed the paint on card you will notice that there is very little speckling with the Tamiya thinner and water mixtures, and pretty much none with the lacquer thinners.

I have a firm belief that your problems stem from how well you mixed the paint because I was extremely thorough with my mixtures and the results show.

I hope this gives a bit of insight to using Vallejo Model Color paints.

Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 24, 2013, 12:35:56 AM
Dude that's brilliant! Thankyou so much I'll give that a shot :) Overwhelmed with the amount of help I'm getting here guys!

Kaik you mentioned earlier about using a Lacquer thinners you got from Bunnings? Would you say its probably a better option over the Turps? I don't think the Turps is the problem here but its always good to know if there are other options.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: KaiK on February 24, 2013, 01:04:52 AM
To be honest I've never cleaned my airbrush with mineral turpentine so I can't really give a comparison. For me I would say lacquer thinner is my best option because I only use water base and solvent based acrylics. If you find that you often use enamel paints in your airbrush then mineral turpentine might work better in that circumstance. If you're using turps and your airbrush is perfectly clean and dry after use then there really shouldn't be anything to stop you from using it. 90-100% (70% isn't so great) IPA is another great cleaner to use because it dries without leaving a trace.

Prior to spraying I will flush the airbrush with the same thinners used in the paint mixture. This sort of lubricates the airbrush and removes one more potential problem. If you've ever used Alclad II paints straight after a water based paint you can often find inconsistency in the paint work as a result of acrylic thinner or even water being mixed in. Trace amounts of turps can contaminate various types of paint because it's too aggressive and tends to adversely affect paint.   
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on February 24, 2013, 10:02:57 AM
Ah ic. Well I'll give other stuff a go too. Its all very easy to switch back and forth between. I have always been careful not to let any turps get into my paints, but who knows maybe it snuck in trace amounts. Before now I've done afew enamels (don't really intend to keep using them though) and Tamiyas. Honestly with Tamiya I find it impossible to bugger it up. No matter what ratio or thinners I use the stuff just sprays like a dream, which may have gotten me into bad habits :P
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on March 03, 2013, 04:16:20 PM
Success! I'm finally pleased with the results this paint has given me! Found the solution to get it to spray around evenly was to mix it THOROUGHLY with afew drops of airbrush cleaner and let it sit for about 10 minutes.

This still doesn't address the issue of it being particularly harsh in terms of clogging up my airbrush, but I can deal with that for now. To be honest after all this I think im gonna steer clear of these paints and give the Gunzes a go. I was drawn to these cause of the great range of colors, but they are just too high maintenance. I don't seem to be alone in this accertion the guy at Metro Hobbies mentioned having similar issues cleaning it our of his brushes. From WHAT I HEAR the Gunze seem to work at a similar standard to the Tamiyas. Although I'm sad to report that we wont be seeing another shipment of Gunze in Aus for atleast another few weeks due to some issues with the importing. So I'll have to be patient :(

I'll post pictures of this DOM when hes all complete. Shouldn't be too long now the hardest bit is well and truly over :P
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: TheGhostofZeon on March 03, 2013, 05:06:06 PM
IMO Gunze is far better than anything else. Tamiya is OK but I have best success with anything by Gunze.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Atchy on March 10, 2013, 05:56:44 PM
Had to touch up some of the pink areas and the Vallejo decided to go back to its old tricks and completely change color. I've just gone over it with the Tamiya purple now, can't be f**ked bothering with this crap anymore. Let this be a warning to all those starting out airbrushing: STAY AWAY FROM THESE PAINTS!

On a brighter note not that I'm using my Tamiyas again the build is coming along great! just added from weathering effects with some gun metal grey and the whole thing is coming up really nice and speckly (the good kind of speckly not the rubbish the Vallejos were doing).
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: KaiK on March 11, 2013, 12:04:59 AM
It is unfortunate you are encountering issues with Vallejo paints, they are definitely less forgiving if you don't mix them thoroughly.
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: cobraleader on June 29, 2017, 12:47:50 PM
i really hate Vallejo Model Air now .... brought a couple of bottles a few weeks ago, since i was hearing raving reviews about it ... used their airbrush thinner ... man talk about hard work ...

first up, drying in the nozzle ... had to open the pin to get it to flow, which caused the good old pooling.

lifted when masked ( and yes I waited several days).  I also stuck the tape to my arms and legs to remove most of the tackiness ... and yes, there are patches of hair missing and the model is a bit hairy

chipped easily from handling

used Gunze Clear Gloss acrylic over top of it and it ended up cracking - i started leaving 2 days between paint applications ...

had to use Vallejo Glaze Medium (i think thats what it was), got acceptable results, but drying time extended ... had to use hair dryer to speed it up ...

i have no problems with vallejo with hand painting, but with airbrush, its not worth it ... reminds me of the early Model Master paints you got in the bag to attach to the Aztec Airbrushes ...

going back to Gunze and Tamiya Acrylics ... they have yet to piss me off.

Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: thegunny on June 30, 2017, 08:52:29 AM
I had lots of trouble with both Air and Color until I started using the Badger Cresendo http://gundamaustralia.com/forum/index.php?topic=1481.0

Can't help you with the masking side as all the models I've painted with Vallejo have been single color with any other colors done by brush. I use mostly Gunze these days more for standardisation than any other reason. They have a pretty good range of colours and if I need any others it's usually Tamiya.

You need to use Vallejo clear over Vallejo, Gunze is solvent based and will affect Vallejo. Found that out the hard way as well  ::)
Title: Re: Model Line paint + Airbrushing problem
Post by: Shaid on July 01, 2017, 03:02:29 PM
I, too, endorse the Badger Crescendo. Only downside is that any time I eff up with airbrushing now I can't blame the paint or tools.